Carolyn Rodrigues-Birkett is a Guyanese diplomat and candidate for Secretary-General of the United Nations. If selected, she would become both the first woman and the first person of Indigenous descent to lead the world body. She joins me in this special episode of Global Dispatches for a substantive conversation about her vision for the UN at a moment of profound strain on the multilateral system.
Drawing on her experience representing Guyana on the Security Council, Rodrigues-Birkett discusses what she learned about the UN’s strengths and limitations in preventing and resolving conflict—and what she would do differently as Secretary-General. She also lays out her approach to global development and global health, makes the case for diplomacy and international cooperation as essential tools for tackling the challenges ahead, and explains how a personal tragedy has fueled her passion for access to health care.
Our conversation is freely available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
The UN is getting a new leader in January. This episode is part of a series of interviews with the candidates for Secretary General. Stay tuned for more!
Transcript edited for clarity
Mark Leon Goldberg: Welcome to Global Dispatches, a podcast for the foreign policy and global development communities and anyone who wants a deeper understanding of what is driving events in the world today.
I’m your host, Mark Leon Goldberg. I am a veteran international affairs journalist and the editor of UN Dispatch. Enjoy the show.
Welcome to Global Dispatches. I’m your host, Mark Leon Goldberg. I am joined today by Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett, a candidate for UN Secretary-General and Guyana’s Ambassador to the United Nations. Welcome, Ambassador.
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: Thank you, Mark, for having me and indeed for the invitation.
Mark Leon Goldberg: Well, I’m very excited for our conversation today and what I hope will be a substantive conversation about your vision for the UN and how you’d approach the job as Secretary General. I think one thing that distinguishes your candidacy is that you very recently served on the Security Council.
Guyana was an elected member of the Council in 2024 and 2025, where you got a firsthand view of how the Council really operates, including, I’d venture, where it sometimes does not necessarily rise to its promise. I’m not going to ask you to diagnose all the ills of the Security Council right now, but rather, I’m curious to learn, were there any shortcomings in the way the Council works that the Secretary General, as a role, could help address?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: There’s always space for the Secretary General. And I am of the view that when there are differences amongst member states on the Security Council, that the Secretary General has a very good opportunity to be that neutral broker, that neutral voice in those discussions. And this is where I believe, should I be appointed, that I’ll be able to play a role.
In fact, had I not served on the Security Council, because this is the sort of ultra-political body of the United Nations, had I not served on that body, I would not have put forward myself for Secretary General. But I have seen what the Security Council can do. I have also had reflections of what the Secretary-General can do. As I said, the neutral broker when the Security Council is not able to come to decisions- sometimes it’s going to work, sometimes it’s not going to work. But I believe that there is space there.
Mark Leon Goldberg: And should, if you were to become Secretary General, and there is that dispute among the P5 that so often stymies progress on the Security Council and action on the Security Council on a mission, how would you insert yourself into that debate, or would you?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: One has to leave their ego at the door when you decide to put yourself forward for Secretary General and when you’re the Secretary General. So, you are going to have scrapes and you are going to have bruises, but you are going to be able to make progress as well. This is my belief. I recall that on the Security Council last year, there was a situation where some members of the council had different views on a particular matter.
And it concerned a country that was going through a lot of deep suffering. And I put forward myself to be, sort of, I don’t want to call it a broker because I was a member of the Security Council. My country was a member of the Security Council, but to talk with all sides in this. And it took some time to understand each other, to also bring the viewpoint of what inaction could mean for the population.
But I and my team, we took that on head-on, and we were able to see that after a couple of months, we were able to have that resolution passed in the Security Council. Why am I giving you this example? Because this is the approach I have to whatever I expected to do when I was a foreign minister, when I was a Minister of Amerindian Affairs, and in the Security Council, keeping one’s eye on the big picture, on the objective, how we can help people. And as Secretary General, this would be the same approach that I would take.
Mark Leon Goldberg: So, obviously there are many crises that are facing the world today. And it has been a real, I think, fixture of everyone’s campaign for Secretary General to focus on their approach to conflict mediation and how would they approach seeking to prevent conflicts as well before they erupt. Is there a unique aspect that you would like to highlight of how you would approach conflict mediation and conflict resolution that you think is distinguished from the other candidates in this race?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: I did not look at my approach in relation to other candidates, but I certainly developed my approach based on my experience throughout the years and my experience on the Security Council as well. I think that one has to understand the context of a conflict, understand who are the conflict parties, who are the players with influence on the conflict parties as well.
And I am not oblivious to the geopolitical situation for each conflict. But the Security Council has, at the moment, about 38 active files. Some of those conflicts are more geopolitically difficult than others. But I believe that we can look at all of these conflicts and see where we can intervene. During this campaign, I visited countries that came out of conflict, that had peacekeeping missions. And today are democracies, relatively stable democracies focusing on development.
And they have spoken to me about the work the UN did with them to bring them out of that situation of conflict where they can now start thriving. And this is the kind of work I want to see the UN do more of. And you are right. Many people are looking at the Secretary-General, looking at the UN through the prism of peace and security.
Why?
Well, first of all, the charter, the first words of the charter is that the UN was established to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war. But also today, we see that we have the highest number of conflicts since World War II by some measures. And so, progress on peace is what the world is looking for at this point in time. Of course, advances on development and advances on human rights. But I understand fully why populations are looking to the UN to resolve the conflicts that we have right now.
Mark Leon Goldberg: So, I’m glad you mentioned the 38 active files at the Security Council and also many countries, and I would highlight, say, Liberia and many countries in Western Africa that have had very successful UN interventions in which they emerged from conflict, from civil war, with international support to become the sort of multi-party democracies they are today.
Surveying those 38 active files you see, is there one particular crisis or conflict that you see as potentially very right for successful UN intervention?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: I wouldn’t want to create a hierarchy of conflicts because the populations who are in those situations, the situation in their country is the most important for them. But what I would like to do is a sort of panoramic scanning of where we can make those interventions. I have some ideas, but I would want to, should I be appointed Secretary General, meet with the people who are currently involved, those who are on the ground.
There’s so much you can get when you are a member of the UN, when you are a member of the Security Council. But once you’re in that position, there’s much more that you will be able to obtain. But I do believe that there are spaces where we can make some headway. But you’re right, Mark, that in addition to what is on the council’s agenda, there are other situations that might not be on the council’s agenda that are also very important.
And so, the prevention aspect is extremely important. And this is where I believe that the Secretary General must be proactive, must be pragmatic, so that we can work faster to prevent conflicts as well.
Mark Leon Goldberg: So, I wanted to turn to questions about global development, which seems, at least from my perspective as a journalist, have receded a little bit in attention among those who follow the UN for the fact that we’re in this era of expanding conflict. But for most of the world, the development agenda is the most important part of what the United Nations does.
You would be Secretary General at the conclusion of the Sustainable Development Goals. I wanted to first ask your diagnosis of the goals themselves as we stand four years before they’re due. What purpose do you think they achieved?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: First, let us not disconnect the development pillar from the peace and security pillar and the human rights pillar. They are all interconnected.
In fact, my view is that the best prophylactic against conflict will be development.
And yes, there are certain conflicts that would have a different sort of identity, but this is my view. And if you look at where underdevelopment is most pronounced, it is in these countries that are in a constant state of conflict. So, making progress on the development side, making progress on the peace and security side is equally important. And if we make progress on both of those, the human rights dividends would also increase.
Coming to the SDGs, yes, we have just a few more years to 2030. When I look at countries around the world, including my own country that received its independence in 1966, One would see that it takes a certain number of years to move to a state of real development. And without financing, that is very difficult. So, for example, my country was a heavily indebted poor country. Without debt relief, we will not be able to achieve what we’ve been able to achieve.
And now we have a little bit more resources. And I’ve seen how those resources have transformed our country in the education sector, in the health sector. And so, access to finance is extremely important. The point I’m making also is that as we consider the post 2030 agenda, we have to be realistic in several ways in terms of the timelines. 15 years to achieve the 17 Sustainable Development Goals might have been very, very ambitious.
So, as we consider the post-2030 agenda, we would have to ensure that our ambition matches the means of what we will be able to achieve for the next period. But the goals remain very, very valid, very noble. I know member states would have to consider how we approach them, but certainly they remain valid. So, access to finance, being realistic about the timeframe, being realistic about the actions that we would take, and also how we work closer with the international financial institutions.
While the UN is a norm-setting organization, and a lot of good work has been done in that regard, the decisions on financing, those are made with the IFIs. So, a better relationship with the IFIs, I think, will be needed.
Mark Leon Goldberg: You preempted my next question because the UN is not a financial, an IFI, international financial institution. But as you pointed out, and as many experts would point out, that access to finance in terms of concessional loans or better terms on loans or forgiveness if a natural disaster strikes and you need some time to repay loans to do the development, these are all kind of in the mix of the big ideas around how to accelerate global development in the coming years.
But of course, the Secretary General is not the head of the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund or any national central bank. So, what specifically could you as Secretary General do to improve access to finance?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: Work with member states to advocate with the international financial institutions. And I have said before that I would not be the Secretary General to stand on a pedestal with a moral stick to beat the IFIs. I think we need to sit down together as partners. The UN has a global voice, and this voice on access to finance has been there for a very, very long time.
There have been some movements, I would say, when I look, for example, at the IMF, I’ve seen that there have been some changes with respect to, for example, countries that have experienced natural disasters and how they are treated. What we need is some incremental steps, I would say, that would have a systemic effect across developing countries to make the system more fair so that you would not have to be borrowing at extremely high rates compared to a similar country that is larger. Let’s just say that.
But I believe that there is space for us to make progress on that. And the UN has actually done some work, for example, on the multidimensional vulnerability index. The small island developing states have been calling, for a long time, for the rules on access to finance to consider vulnerability. And some work has been done on that. A resolution was passed on the MVI.
How do we use that or aspects of that, for example, to how the IFIs use that, I would say, would be very important. And some work is ongoing right now as well in the UN, ongoing beyond GDP, so that we just do not use only GDP. But when we talk about reform of the IFIs, it sounds like a really big task. I am of the view that incremental steps could have really positive effects as well.
Mark Leon Goldberg: So, you hinted earlier about what might come next after the SDGs. And I’d love to have you flesh that out a little bit. You would be Secretary General at the time in which, presumably, more development goals might be set. I suppose two questions. One, do you, big picture, agree with this idea of global goals setting? What sort of process should inform that and what should those global goals look like, if so?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: This will be in the hands of the member states. They set the sustainable development agenda. They will set the post 2030 agenda. But it’s also important for the Secretary General and the Secretariat to provide member states with the information that we have gathered. The UN has a very large footprint on the ground. And the information on what has worked, what we may need to tweak, what are some of the challenges we see, what are some of the positives that we’ve seen over these last 15 years, I’m speaking here by the time we’re discussing the 2030 agenda will be extremely important.
For example, do we need to do more with helping countries to be ready to engage with the private sector? That’s one area we may want to look at. There’s lots of money out there in the private sector, but how do we help countries to be able to attract investments? What are the criteria that must be fulfilled in order for those investments to come. We know that it’s going to be difficult, for example, in areas that are currently in conflict, but there might be other situations where we’re able to help.
So, the kind of technical assistance we provide to member states while we work on concessional financing, it’s extremely important. But this would be a very interesting process, I believe, as member states consider this. And also, let us not forget that while we will not, as a world, achieve the SDG, several countries have made progress. And let us examine what those countries have done in order to make that progress.
Mark Leon Goldberg: So, I wanted to ask you a bit now about what I consider the twin to global development — global health. There has been, I think it’s inarguable, the significant progress in multilateralism on global health issues. How do you see your leadership of the United Nations continuing and contributing to that process of multilateralism on global health issues?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: The World Health Organization, which member states are members of, would have seen how the COVID-19 pandemic pushed many of our countries in a direction that we didn’t want to go – backwards. And many countries are still recovering from that. But we’ve also learned from that experience how we must be more prepared. So, pandemic preparedness, pandemic response will be extremely important. But also that the headway that we have made on certain other diseases, we need to also keep up the momentum so that we can have the eradication of some of those diseases.
But also access to medicine is extremely important. I have seen how the lack of access, I come from an Indigenous village, Mark. A very personal story here for me, but I saw my brother died in my father’s hands because of lack of access to a doctor. That situation has changed for my community in terms of access to health facilities and health providers. And so, improving access is extremely important and very close to my heart.
But I believe that we have learned quite a lot from the pandemic and that we will be better prepared. We must be better prepared.
Mark Leon Goldberg: Thank you for sharing that personal story. Can I ask you to describe that a little bit? How old was your brother, and what happened?
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: He was seven. And at the time, we had a health center which was staffed with medics, so this is not a doctor, but we did not have certain facilities for testing, for example, in terms of what was wrong with him. He had a seizure, and he was unconscious for a couple of days. And then we were traveling to another place, about 50, 60 miles, to the other closest facility that would have a doctor. We were going by boat through the river, and on the way to that facility, he died.
Mark Leon Goldberg: I’m very sorry, but it sounds as you brought this up, that it is something that obviously stays with you, but also is something that informs your approach to rural access and equitable access to health.
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: Definitely. And I’ve seen as well how education can help in this. And when I became Minister of Amerindian Affairs in 2001, we, Indigenous peoples represent 10% of Guyana. And at that time, we had one Indigenous doctor, just one. Why? Because 90% of our people, our students had no access to high school. You have to go to high school to be able to go to university. And we were able to, through very direct policies, through some people may want to call it affirmative action, but through very direct policies to ensure that Indigenous people’s access to education, to high schools, secondary education improved.
And today, we have many, many indigenous doctors. And I’m talking here just 25 years later. But one has to put the investment in place. And so now some of those doctors are serving their communities. And my father today could go to the hospital and he can get an ultrasound. He can get an eye test just in his community. So, access is very close to my heart.
Mark Leon Goldberg: So you would be the first person of indigenous descent to become the Secretary-General. I’m curious to learn if there are unique aspects of your background as an indigenous person that shape your approach to diplomacy as a top diplomat from Guyana and would shape your approach to diplomacy as secretary general.
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: Indeed, we are all products of our experiences and our upbringing and, of course, our education. As you said, I was born in an Indigenous community, but I’m from a country that is multi-ethnic. And in addition to the Indigenous peoples that were there, the rest of our population, their ancestors came from other continents, from Africa, from Asia, from Europe, the great majority under very, very difficult circumstances.
But what I have learned over these years, coming from an Indigenous community and coming from a group that is smaller compared to others, is that it’s very important to understand each other’s history, each other’s culture, each other’s background, concerns, but also aspirations so that we can work together to a common goal. In Guyana, it was a case of working towards nation building. In terms of the UN, of course, is understanding each other so that we can work to solve the global challenges that we face.
And so, I will bring that with me, the experience that I’ve had growing up in a small community, but also in government and working with others. I work as the permanent representative of Guyana here. I’m the only Indigenous person in this group. When I joined the foreign ministry, I was the minister, an Indigenous person, of course, a Guyanese Indigenous person, and there was one other Indigenous person there as well. So understanding each other and letting people understand you, I think it’s also very, very important.
And this was my approach on the Security Council too, always interested in the backgrounds of others. So, the positions that they put forward and the backgrounds of their country would help me to understand what could be possible solutions.
Mark Leon Goldberg: Well, Ambassador Rodriguez-Burkett, thank you so much for your time, for speaking with me, for this conversation. Good luck in the next round of straw polls and in your campaign. Thank you.
Carolyn Rodrigues-Burkett: Thank you, Mark. And thank you for the work that you do too.
Mark Leon Goldberg: Thanks for listening to Global Dispatches. The show is produced by me, Mark Leon Goldberg. It is edited and mixed by Levi Sharpe. If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, make sure to follow the show and enable automatic downloads to get new episodes as soon as they’re released.
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